Lunch Hour Lecture Introduction to Neurodiversity and Non-Visible Disabilities

Date: 03 November 2020 Speaker: Dr Dafne Zuleima Morgado Ramirez, Senior Research Associate at the Interaction Centre (UCLIC), UCL This lunch time lecture will be an introduction to neurodiversity and how it relates to non-visible disabilities. Then I will explain what is happening at UCL in terms of neurodiversity, giving example of the strengths that neurodivergent people bring to higher education. Then I will introduce the neurodivergent Staff Network and our initiatives at UCL. To end, if there is time, I will give a short summary of the state of adult autism research in computer science. Free to attend, live stream or watch online More info : http://events.ucl.ac.uk/lhl Join the conversation on Twitter at #UCLMinds#MadeatUCL

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Unknown Speaker 0:03

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to this afternoon's lunch hour lecture where we're very pleased to have you all with us today. My name is Roxana Romina. Sarah, I am a PhD student on assistive technology. My focus is on using technology to assist people with mobility impairments. And I belong to the global disability Innovation Hub, as well as the UCL interaction center. And so those our lecturer sorry our presenter of today. Anyway, I have the pleasure of chairing today's lecture, Introduction to neuro diversity and non visible disabilities given by Dr. Daphne Sulayman. Work Ella Ramirez who is a senior research associate at the UCLA interaction center. Just a reminder that we will be taking questions we have slido information to join slideshow was in the event information you received before hands but just engaged with you will receive it you can go to SLI dot the O and enter the code LH l, autumn a utku, MN. Now, I'll hand it over to the speaker and I hope you enjoyed the lecture of today

Unknown Speaker 1:18

we are going to start with a modest disability it is an umbrella term covering impairments, activity limitations and participation restrictions. So, as I said, My email is in the first slide and I will present it again in the last one. So, what is this ability, it is an umbrella term covering impairment or activity limitations on participation restrictions. So, an impairment is a disruption in body function or a structure that can also be neurological. So, in the brain, an activity limitation is difficulty encountered by an individual in executing a task or action. A participation restriction is a challenge experienced by an individual in involvement in life situations. Therefore, disability is a complex phenomenon, reflecting on interaction between features of a person's body and features of the society in which they live. They united conventions the rights of persons with disabilities that was a published in 2006 acknowledges that disability is an evolving concept, but also stresses that disabilities results from the interaction between persons with impairments and attitudinal and then borrow mental barriers that hinder their full and effective participation in society on an equal basis with others. It goes on to note that persons with disabilities include those who have long term physical, mental, intellectual or sensory impairments, which in interaction with various barriers may hinder their full and effective participation in society on an equal basis with others. So, in summary, I want you to take home message that disability does not lie in the individual as long as you can see from this definition of disability law is also in the environment and other people with the person with an impairment interacts with

Unknown Speaker 4:11

non visible or invisible disability. An invisible disability doesn't mean that it is hidden or it is not or it does not exist.

Unknown Speaker 4:29

It is real. It is an example of invisible disabilities are for example, autism, which means different way of experiencing the environment, different ways of processing information or dyslexia, which means a someone is a very good at in creative ways of processing information. So An invisible disability is diverse, because people can have various invisible disabilities mix of present at the same time, it is dynamic because it can change throughout the day. So in the morning, when you're starting today, you feel more energy, but it depends how many meetings you have, how much work you have, maybe at the end of the day, you're more tired and your needs will change. And it is multi dimensional, because there are there is a intersectionality. So, there is gender, there is race. And then there is the environment, the physical environment and all the people with whom you are interacting. So, approximately 25% of the population is neurodivergent. So, the rest of the population we say that they are neurotypical because they know they are neurologically typical neuro refers to the brain and the nervous system in all the body not just the brain. And diversity is a term that is coming from biology which which means everything is diverse. So, neuro diversity means diversity in neurology. The Infinite sound bowl that is used to represent neurodiversity is such because there is an infinite diversity of presentations of neuro divergence and neuro diversity. So, the whole human population is neuro diverse, but there is a percentage of the population as far as we understand is 25% who are mirror live version whereas the whole the human population is neurodiverse. neuro divergence is not a disease, it is not a mental illness, and it is not a collection of deficits. Things that I want you to remember from this lecture is that some neurodivergent people do not see themselves as disabled and some neurodivergent people refer to themselves as neurodiverse these are personal choices. In general, neuro diversity sorry, neuro divergence means that we have different brain functions and we have different ways of learning and processing information different to the rest of the 75% of the population. So, if it is not a collection of deficits, then then what it is and I am having in this slide a table that can give you examples of the multiple string of barriers, various new realization presentations. Typically, when talking about neuro divergence, you will know about autism HDA, ADHD, or a DD dyscalculia, dyspraxia, dyslexia, Tourette's, all these terms that I just said, I our clinical terms, which are used by doctors to diagnose something, but what I want you to see is the collection of strengths that a person would have, while having these neurodivergent presentations. And to understand that someone that is autistic could could be also dyslexic and have dyslexia and have a different combination of the strength. So for example,

Unknown Speaker 9:31

people without decent have intense hyperfocus excellent visual skills, they value they are value driven. A integrity and honesty is very important for them. They are very good at creative creativity and problem solving just as someone with a a ADHD or a DD or someone with dyscalculia, or with dyspraxia or dyslexia autistic people also are have an ability to work on supervise. They have very strong analytical and critical thinking skills just as someone with dyslexia, they are very determined. They have very good observational skills. Whereas someone with ADHD or a DD will be very good at working under pressure, have an intense energy and a very good complete version as someone that was very good at multitasking and will be able to shift tasks very easily. They have visible enthusiasm, they will be very good in perseverance. They will have excellent memory and observation as someone with dyscalculia will have very practical ability, very intuitive, and will be very good at strategic thinking just as someone with dyspraxia. So dyspraxia will have high levels of literacy. And we'll be holistic thinkers. Apart from all the other strengths that I already mentioned, someone with dyslexia, we have an ability to think in three dimensions, and maybe more. We have very strong verbal skills. And they are very strong visual thinkers. They are also good at math and mechanical thing, thinking. And someone with read will be able to process language faster than the general population. And we have enhanced language skills often have enhanced memory as well as self control. And we find it easy to pick up new skills. So all these examples, you can read more about them because they are reported by the Institute of leadership and management in a publication called workplace neurodiversity the power of difference, part two.

Unknown Speaker 12:19

So what is this? What is the fate of neurodivergent people in employment, there are multiple reports and guys, I am listing them here, I have a list of stakes. And the situation is sadly not positive. There is much work to do to improve the inclusion of neurodivergent in employment. So I'm just going to read a guide in case someone with a visual disability is hearing this presentation. The first report is the voices of our industry. The martec inclusion and diversity report from 2019 to second one is championing championing better work and working lives and optimize the authority support. Sorry, this guide called neurodiversity of work guide 2018. The third one is a autobuy data on Marketing Association, DMA talent. And the guide is called as this employer guide in and it was published in 2019. The fourth one is the autism act 10 years old. Our report from the old party parliamentary group on edition on understanding services and support for autistic people and their families in England. It was published in 2019. And if you look at it, there is a section on employment. The fifth one is neuro diversity of work published in 2016. And it is a research paper by the National Institute of economic and social research. And the sixth one was just recently published this year, and it's called workplace neurodiversity the power of difference our certified the Institute of leadership and management, it is a collection of reports and one case Sr. All these you can find them online, they are often asked,

Unknown Speaker 14:36

continuing on what is the state of neurodivergent people in employment. As I said, it is not positive. There's these many stereotypes regarding your diversions and then many neurodivergent employees report mental health issues as a result of disabling working environments, which span across Oregon. organizational structures, physical environment, as well as social expectations. One example, the learn is that you will be able to find in these reports that I mentioned is, for example, the Rhema report of the fastener 19 which says that the incidences of anxiety and depression appear much higher in the new neurodivergent that is 80% 84% compared to the neurotypical that is 49% and discrimination based on gender, ethnicity, neurodiversity and Aish. Our own party of our Of particular concern for us, for example, they see IPD and optimize a guide will tell you that there is a substantial risk with interviews that are are eating for on empathetic, a by interviewers that could make negative judgments and an applicant's suitability for everyone. So I just explained this more simple words, if you have an interviewing firm and that doesn't understand your diversions, they will make assumptions and expectations on on how someone should behave and answer based on a neurotypical expectation and when they meet someone that is neurodivergent they are unable to understand the strengths and qualities and that is a risk is a high risk. So what is happening at UCL, in terms of neurodiversity? So from me, the person or 19, we form a network, and we call it a neurodivergent stuff network, which is formed by and fourth neurodivergent is that it was our idea a and we are now gaining some support from UCL, especially from the Department of equality and diversity. Another simply says this, here is your launch the sunflower lounger, which means that you can a courier lunger with some flowers. And if someone at UCL sees that they they understand that you have a disability that could be visible or non invisible. But the main message is that they need to be understanding they need to be patient and accept you as as you are. And obviously it's a voluntary action that you can take but just know that a this launch included training of UCL facility staff, so it was not just launching a lounger It included training of your senior staff. Another thing that happened recently is that the neurodivergent staff network had been working on bringing training to UCL or neuro divergence, and we managed to do that in October on the week of the fifth of October. And the train is permanently available or for everyone to see I will give you more information in another slide. Other things that are happening at UCL in terms of neurodiversity is that the disability qualities during growth is taking into account a neurodiversity. The enabled network is growing and is it getting members that are neurodiverse some of them disclosing their neurodiversity. I myself as a researcher at UCL, I am integrating neurodiversity in my own research in computer science, human computer interaction Disability and Assistive Technology. Other samples is, for example, the master degree at the global disability innovation for quality stability. The center innovation includes topics on neuro diversity, as well as master at the International Center for computer science.

Unknown Speaker 19:31

So I'm going to talk a little bit more about euro rather than euro diversion to staff network. So in this slide, I have a logo. So if you imagine four vertical bars, and then one of those bars is slightly bended. And that bended bar group says that 25% of the human population that is neurodivergent, whereas the other three which are 75%, or percent are the ones that are non neurodivergent As I said before we are self identify neurodivergent that only so far we are around 29 and we interact using Microsoft Teams. We have monthly peer support meetings as well as a monthly action group meeting. And to give you an example of where we are from, I put the fire quarters from which we were we are a we are not just academics, we have members from the Information Services Division from the Office of the Vice Provost equality, diversity and inclusion as well from the research and education and Student Affairs Office from human resources and all the other faculties which are population health, Bartlett, social and historical sciences, medical sciences, arts and humanities, mathematics, physical sciences, engineering, Brain Sciences, from basic to the education from IT staff a specific for faculties and from students and register services.

Unknown Speaker 21:26

So why why do we need this network? When it is no four weeks because mental health problems resulting from inaccessible ways of working and communicating at UCL? Is this something we should be worried about? And we want also to achieve a sense of belonging and peer support at UCL? What do we do? We do initiatives to remove remove disabling factors at UCLA and improve peer support. How do we do when we do when we talk to each other with honesty and confidence and support from Alice across UCM. One of the initiatives that we have achieved is a creating a remote meeting guideline which is publicly publicly available in the website or the slide and just need to search for Accessible remote meeting guideline and then you see it and then neurodivergent and then you will find it. So why do we need this guy. So a normal overload of information. For example, having video chat and audio makes it difficult to understand what people are saying leading to overwhelm and fatigue. Also, a lack of an agenda or a chair, not enforcing rules means that we do not know when to talk. And we need time to process information. And then any of them from neurodivergent people to hide information overload or certainty, or insufficient processing time can lead to mental health problems like anxiety, depression and harmful stimming. Another of the initiatives that have been successful is a week of training, which was titled understanding hero diversions that we launched on the fifth of october of 2020. And a you can check the outline of this training accuracy in this way with your UCL account that is in the slide that I'm presenting now. The learning material is permanently available to all UCL staff and students and you can enroll yourself in Moodle. So far, we have had a survey with 20 responses of people have have taken the training and the writing so far is 416. So taking into account that is the first time we're doing this, I think we are having a good start and we are going to improve it. Just to give you an idea of the impact of this understanding, you know diversion strain at UCL is a that we ask one question before and after, regarding how people felt about their knowledge on your diversions and neurodiversity. So before there were serial, people feeling extremely confident after there was one before there were two people feeling quite confident. After the training, there were 10. Before the training, there were seven people feeling moderately confident. And after the training, there were eight. And before the training, there were 11 people feeling not at all confident about neurodiversity and your organization's after this training, we had only one.

Unknown Speaker 25:30

So, what do we need from our neurotypical managers or colleagues at UCLA? In the following three slides, I will present answers that we got from our neurodivergent staff network members. Regarding this question, we would like them to know that a we may need very specific instructions for tasks. We may need extra explanations if something is worded badly or ambiguously. Some of us are performing under high anxiety. To achieve the appearance of coping Well, some of us take the Manage daily work on top of managing discrimination and accidental ignorance from our colleagues. We are permanently trying to understand their ways of working and communicating we expect the same from them. Unfortunately, NHS services and support for neurodivergent are deficient and getting diagnosis does not solve everything. For some of us, the impairment is not immediately identifying when a colleague is having difficulties therefore, we are not able to help immediately as expected. As I presented to you, we have wrote a guideline and it will be really good if you read it on and try to incorporate it to your ways of working.

Unknown Speaker 27:12

We would love for them to learn that. We would love for them to develop their tolerance of silence or acquired posts of capsule silence are needed to gather our thoughts during meetings and conversations.

Unknown Speaker 27:46

We would love for them to learn about the double empathy problem. I invite you to type it on your web browser, the word empathy problem and the key word addition about multiple neuro divergence, variety and variability as some of us have multiple presentations of neuro divergence to learn about the positives and strengths of neuro divergence, as I have shown you in a previous slide. And to learn about existing accessibility guidelines for documents and with nothing, we need them to understand that sometimes it takes longer to do something. Sometimes it takes longer to process an idea. Sometimes it takes longer to process the neurotypical ways of thinking. And some of us have experienced years of discrimination and we may be in a defense mode. It is difficult to figure out if people are genuine, disingenuous or exploiting. And we need them to understand our ways of working and approaching problems. So I invite you all to take the training in Moodle. We need them to be mindful about how some near diversion presentations have to be considered when putting work teams together to leverage their strengths. Instead of enabling collages. bespoke management training we need to be developed to manage this. And integration resources and chain that is LED and provided by 100%. neurotypical are not ideas so I invite you to stick trainers and resources that are co led by neurotypical diversion. And be mindful about mainstream media that portrays and disseminates stereotypes and negative effects. Have neurodivergent individuals. And please do not represent a person with a puzzle. So I want to say thank you for viewing, reading or listening this presentation. I would really like to interact with you. And I invite you to ask questions.

Unknown Speaker 30:23

Definitely thank you very much for this thorough presentation. So now we're just going to give some time for questions and answers. So we encourage you to post some questions if you have. So, yeah, if you have, I'm going to go through them on slightly. Just give me a couple seconds. I'm just going to post a question myself. Okay. Um, so let's go for the first question that I can see here. So someone is saying, Hi, Daphne, could you please pass the links for the resources you're sharing somewhere here in slideshow because from YouTube, we can click thanks. So what I mean, you can leave it to me that maybe you want you can send them to me on Team submit or post them here. It's like, Well, that was a first question. Second question that come? What research projects on neuro divergence Are you working on at the GTA hub?

Unknown Speaker 31:21

Very good question. So one, one very interesting that I'm doing now is related to destacados. So you will often hear me say that instead of others with autism, because the autistic community in the United Kingdom prefers to be called autistic. Whereas for example, in the USA, they prefer to be called a person or an individual with autism. But it goes down to the individual individual individuals. So always ask first, if someone says to you that they are artistic or a person with a decent just listen carefully and follow that. Okay, so going to the question, if it is related to that, so so in computer science, you will see a lot of research that is aimed at developing technology to improve several aspects of being human in this world that are directed to children with autism, or autistic children. And the good thing, yes, however, it is not good that the majority of this research is aimed at children whereas adults are artistic. So children do not grow, outgrow this. This is a stereotype. He is if children, if a child is born with autism, the child will grow and continue being autistic. The difference is that an autistic person learns techniques. They they're learn to hide some of their presentations, and they may appear neurotypical, but they're still artistic. And some autistic people find it easier, some not on some don't want to change it, why would you change the way you are to fit the 75% of the population. So my point is that I want the human computer interaction to improve and take into account of distinct areas. So I am doing a literature review of past work that has dedicated the world to autistic adults to understand what has happened in the past, and therefore give the computer science community a snapshot of what has been happening path plus recommendations of how to include autistic adults in research. That's one of the projects that I'm doing. And apart from that, I have other projects that I frequently suggest to a messy master's students to take on. And it always depends on the master's students because master's students always have the decision. Whether they want to do a project on neuro divergence or not, is their decision. Okay,

Unknown Speaker 34:21

thank you. So the next question is, apologies if you touched on these, but could you let me know where you hoped the next steps of your research will take you?

Unknown Speaker 34:36

I think it will take me so I see myself doing continuing research in human computer interaction stability and assistive technology with neuro divergence, including your divergence because this ability as we talk is an ISA. is complex, multi dimensional diverse. So I don't want my research just to be about neuro divergence, I want to continue having this intersectionality. So I do see myself continuing within that a path where I do research on human computer interaction Disability and Assistive Technology, including neurodiversity. But not only research, I would continue working, for example for the global disability Innovation Hub whenever I can, and I have already started a doing work at UCL as you have seen on a quality diversity and inclusion. So as part of my role as a senior research associate, I'm not only doing a research, I'm also doing something that you see records, institutional citizenship, so so the knowledge that I'm gaining from my own research is also used to improve employment situation, the employment situation within UCL for all their staff and students. So it's not only I was researching, when I see a future of myself, I put a Believe me is a combination of research institution of citizenship and engagement with a non governmental organisations. Okay, thank

Unknown Speaker 36:35

you. The next question, which I was asking is, because you mentioned to stop using the puzzle symbol for representation. So I was just wondering, what what is the symbol? Is this like an actual icon? Or? Or?

Unknown Speaker 36:50

Yes, it is a it's a sample that an organization uses to represent of deism and they're just a normal question, you're not to use it just because there has been quite an arguable moment between the artistic community and this specific organization, where, what they have decided to utilize the medical model of disability, which means a disability is a problem that needs to be fixed or cure. And by taking that approach, they have ignored what most of the autistic community thinks, which is the one a cure. So when non governmental organization was a cure, is not listening to the community and is utilizing that fireball to represent what they stand for. It causes distress to some people, so I'm recommending you not to do that. And basically give me giving you some tips that will save you problems.

Unknown Speaker 38:20

Okay, here, thank you for that. Definitely. Um, so next question is, do you think that parents have a responsibility to get an official diagnosis of neuro divergence if they think their child is displaying symptoms?

Unknown Speaker 38:37

a very difficult question to answer first, because I don't have children. But as someone that is neurodivergent, I think if a child is basically visibly, and struggling, and their environment where they live, that specific school that they are then specific society where they live, the specific country where they live, requires the diagnosis to provide the support that the child needs. Then if I was a parent, I would seek the diagnosis. But then you also need to take into account the other spectrum where someone is born in a contract, which is a highly resource country, and there may be a school that already has experience with children that are neurodivergent. And you have parents that are aware of neuro divergence, or maybe they are not aware, but they were they they were their way of educating their children is a very inclusive way. They may not need support, because they already have a an even when the child grows. Then everyone may think oh, this is is a typical child, whereas the chart is neurodivergent. And until they reach an adult life and they start working in a different country or in a company, which is not inclusive, they will start developing mental health problems and the mental health problem is just a result of the non inclusive environment, not directly from their disability. And that's when I would start having problems and start seeking diagnosis. And that's why many people don't have a clinical diagnosis until their adult life. So, every case is different. Every person is different, even among euro diversion individuals, every individual is different. And environment is a huge factor in terms of how much supporting so going back to the question, I hope I tried to explain that this is definitely a very difficult question to answer. asked again, if I didn't have

Unknown Speaker 41:13

Thank you, Daphne. Um, so are you aware of other networks? Oh, sorry. Okay, let's go for a different question. So Francesca says thanks, Daphne, regarding cluding like neurodivergent participants in research projects, current ethics review processes at UCL require we identify if people belong to a vulnerable group, my feeling is that we would not necessarily define as vulnerable. Why would you advise when designing research?

Unknown Speaker 41:50

Yeah, okay. So, I would advise you to be aware of the challenges that various presentations of New Relic versions have. For example, there can be sensitivity to light, smells and sounds. Third, can be the need to explain things in very simple wars and efficient, there can be the need of changing the way you you choose your methods, your research methods, for example, if you want to do interviews, it may matter whether you do them in person, or remotely. Or whether you send your participants questions in advance, it will matter depending on the neurodivergent presentation. So it's not just about defining your population as vulnerable or not vulnerable, because we we can see cases in which neurodivergent people are vulnerable during very specific conditions. And non vulnerable don't during other conditions. So when you write a proposal and start distorting the risk. In my personal experience, I just, I mean, just very explicit that I will not recruit, for example, someone with an intellectual disability. I generally do not mention neurodiversity or neuro divergence, because some ethics committees are not well, awareness I mentioned before UCLA has never had a training on your diversions before. Justice October, we had the first one and attendance in my personal opinion was not wide enough to reach ethics committees. So so for the time being, I would advise you not to mention or try to explain your ethics application, what our neurodivergent person is and how you, you say that this is not a vulnerable person. Just try to avoid situations like for example, in recruiting children unless you are experienced on that and you have the right tours and advice by your line manager or supervisor. So I feel that I'm going away from the question. Roxanna, can you please tell me the question again? You're muted.

Unknown Speaker 44:52

Sorry. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 44:53

The question is, current ethics review process at UCL require we identify if people belong to a vulnerable group. My feeling is that we would not necessarily define as vulnerable, what would you advise when designing research?

Unknown Speaker 45:07

Okay, so I gave some advice already. And that's precisely one of the problems because even the guidance of UCL in terms of writing the ethics application, it doesn't have any definition for neuro divergence, and it only it only says more than a person. So someone with a disability is not necessarily vulnerable. Um, and I think Roxanne is also experiencing that. So if you want to share, please go ahead. But I think part of part of us have had experience applying for ethics. And and as we mentioned before, a lot of us are working in our research environment is that we are constantly interacting with people with different disabilities. And also note that a one of the things that I want to change in UCL culture is, for example, a, you could email me, and I could send you on a six application sample, I am very happy to do that. The only thing that just I need to be careful is I wouldn't invite you to email me to ask me basics about ethics application, because that's that there's, there's a department to do that. But I am happy for you to to say to me, I am thinking of doing this study, and it involves this group of people with disabilities. And I have consulted with my ethics committee, and they say this, and I don't know. But the point is that I want to have a more open culture in New Zealand and help us help each other. So if we can help each other, not working twice, because I have done ethics applications before I could share them with you. Of course, I need to speak with my Lana manager first, but that that would be fine. I can handle that.

Unknown Speaker 47:13

I mean, just to extend a bit on what you mentioned, basically, I who work on research with people with mobility impairments, I would also say that they don't need to be considered vulnerable. And I would be looking, in my case, for example, looking at adults who are able to consent, were able to understand the nature of the research that we are performing. And as long as you know, they fit into this category. And they're Yeah, I mentioned the adults, I don't see why the there's a necessary need to call them vulnerable. However, I think it is important to accommodate for whatever requirements like accessibility requirements. So for instance, as I mentioned, because I have been working with people with mobility impairments, and obviously make sure that buildings are accessible. And we're also able to accommodate for whatever needs that they that might arise during the the experiment or the interview or whatever you're holding. And in general, I think just keeping an eye, like being aware and empathetic of the participants in your research, which applies as well to everyone really, right. I mean, I think it's just the good research practice in general. Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 48:37

I would like to add something as because it cost to research. What I have seen also is that the even before you write your ethics application, you would have had a time of thinking of your research and planning, and the space in which you can include people with disabilities. So if you have a specific group, try to contact a charity that specializes in that disability, or maybe there is a support network locally that you can contact and engage with them and talk to them and say I want to do this research. Is this something that you will be interested in? Is it a found you? What would you need me to do to for you to be able to participate in this study? Or maybe they told you why are you doing that? I don't have any problem with that. And that's also very important because the research should be responding to need.

Unknown Speaker 49:33

Okay, thanks. Um, I think this is the final question for Well, unless someone writes Well, no, but for now, isn't the final question. Are there any areas of research that you think would help neurodiverse candidates before they enter the workplace and after they have joined the workplace?

Unknown Speaker 49:54

Yes, so that is a really good guy. For that, that would explain things much better than I can verbally to try now. And I'm going to share again that lie. Okay, so this is good, because I promise that I need to give you the links to this guy. And Roxanna will type in a slider. So you're able to type in a slide of writers. Okay, so regarding this question that was expressed right now. So look at the guys. So number two is that guy.

Unknown Speaker 50:43

And

Unknown Speaker 50:46

this one is general to neurodiversity. And he has a very good section of on advice to neurodivergent before applying to a job, and after applying to it, and it covers all aspects from a applying to the in job vacancy interview process as asking for reasonable accommodations, also a word you need to talk to your land manager. And one thing that is important, I think that you need to think about is whether you want to disclose your neurodivergent or not. That's something you need to give a lot of thought. And I think it also involves a lot of research, from your part, because we need to try to understand what is the situation in that specific company regarding employment, or neurodivergent, or anyone with disability? For example, did they have a specific department on equality, diversity and inclusion? Did they have internal support networks by unforeseeable is bad? Time to check that type of thing. So what I'm going to do try now is look for the length of each of these guys. So I will get six links with this uptime. Anyway, I will do it quickly. And then I will give that to Rosanna and she will put this into slideshow. So while I'm doing these, I'm going to mute myself okay. Hey, no worries. Thank you. That's it.

Unknown Speaker 52:38

I just hear a comment from Francesco. He says thanks, Stephen. And Roxanna, that was very helpful. I'll be in touch via email for some more questions. Okay, so the problem right here to answer the questions, hopefully. And, and well, in general, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for joining us today the audience and hope, hope you enjoyed the talk. I'd also like to give a big thank you to DEF net for joining us today and for sharing with us some amazing insight. You will receive an email in the next day or so with a short feedback survey and also the upcoming schedule of lectures. We hope to see you at another lecture soon. So stay well. And yeah, just bear with us while we share the links on slide

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